Another jazz musician here. (jazz pianist for 30+ years)
If you can't transpose on the fly, you're not a good jazz musician. Period.
Well, there's transposing and transposing. Transposing up/down a tone, semitone, fourth, fifth usually isn't too hard, depending on the song and tempo. But transposing some tunes by some intervals is very tricky. Most people have, I suspect, not practised doing that much, because there's no need. (No need at all if you don't play with singers.) Some jazz musicians practise playing tunes in every key, but a small minority, I believe. (And then you wouldn't be 'transposing on the fly' but doing something you've practised.) Being able to play tunes in one key is enough. But saying what you said so dogmatically sounds ridiculous to me. (I mean really..if someone can't, say, play Stella by Starlight in E 'on the fly' you'd tell them "You're not a good jazz musician. Period."?!)
If you can't play equally well in all keys, you're not a good jazz musician. Period.
That's just rubbish.
I'm not sure who you're trying to impress or why, but what you say just sounds wrong. And so arrogant: "You are way off base" "Period." "where the hell are you getting this?" etc. Everything the GP said sounded right to me. Read it again - you weren't really responding to what they said at all, but something else. It seems you felt insulted or something, I don't know why.
I'm a long time jazz bassist. I don't play in NYC -- that's another world that I know little about. But in a mid sized city, I can keep up with anybody playing standards or written material. I do play with musicians who have paid their dues in the big cities, so I know what they are capable of.
Being able to transpose while sight reading melodic lines or chord charts is pretty rare, and seldom happens. I can play in any key if I know the tune, i.e., most standards, because I've internalized the harmonies. I can make you think that I can transpose because I know more tunes than you'd expect from an amateur. The people who can transpose complicated written lines on the fly are mostly academic classical musicians by day.
But actually, jazz musicians are losing interest in the old game of trying to stump one another on the bandstand. I hold my own when it happens, but it's really not serving the music or the audience, and is something I associate with players who are past their prime. Nobody's forgotten the standards, but the bright young players are doing more with original compositions and arrangements.
My experience is mostly in NYC, so I can speak to that. Our experiences sound basically the same, though I can confirm that NYC generally expects a level of proficiency higher than just about anywhere else.
Yeah, I am so happy with about the last +/- decade of jazz's development. The crusty OG's yelling "get off the bandstand!" are dying out, and like you said, there's so much more focus on original compositions, and thus actually having rehearsal time (instead of just showing up to a gig and being expected to read everything -- though that's still super common, even with originals, in NYC. That was why I got work: I'm a guitarist who's a good sight-reader) And there's much more support amongst the players (albeit above a certain level of expected proficiency -- you gotta "join the club" still).
Overall it's nice to see. Much more positive and supportive while making (IMO) way more interesting and better music, pushing the genre forward rather than wallowing in dick-measuring contests.
I’ve been a jazz musician for over 30 years as well and I can play in any key instantly and effortlessly. Of course it probably helps that I’m the drummer.
I see what you're saying -- my language can definitely be interpreted as asshole-ish. Tone is obviously hard to interpret when speaking in text, but my intention is to just clear things up gently but firmly -- I should do better with that, I grant you that.
How I feel seeing mostly-tech people talking about music is how tech people probably feel when they see CSI show us a "hacker." It's just way off so often, and like most people on this site, I usually like to correct incorrect statements when I see them; there's no point in letting misinformation or incorrect assumptions stand if I can easily jump in and clear it up.
I feel like you're ignoring the context of the what I was replying to, though. This discussion is talking about standards. It's a trope by this point that every serious jazz student is encouraged -- forced, even -- to learn standards in all 12 keys. I've been fortunate to study at some pretty "prestigious" schools, hang and take private lessons with some seriously heavy hitters in the jazz world, and absolutely none of my peers or educators would bat an eye at what I said. Many of them may not like it (myself included), others totally perpetuate it, but zero would disagree that it is a very commonly-held attitude.
I'm not defending the, as I called it, "hardcore meritocracy" of the jazz world -- stating that exists is not the same as defending it. It can be toxic (though it's improved a lot in recent decades), and you're correct to refer to it as dogmatically ridiculous. It's often backwards-thinking and stuck in the past. I think the whole culture of using standards as some reliable barometer of someone's skill is insane, and is a total waste of time.
These and other reasons are why I'm not longer a professional jazz musician -- I've since moved on to things that interest me far more than improvising over the Real Book. But I'm just stating facts. Waltz into any club in any serious jazz city like NYC, Boston, or Paris, ask to play, and see what happens when a tune is called out in a certain key, and you pipe up and say, "Uh, I only know that one in __. Can we do that instead?" Once is maybe fine, but after two or three and they'll tell you to get off the stage, because you're not a "real" jazz musician. The gate-keeping is real.
Again, not defending it. I want to make it clear that I think it's fucking stupid. But this is reality. Period ;)
Ah ok thanks, that makes more sense. Turns out you didn't mean and don't believe those things you said - it was meant to represent very commonly-held attitudes/beliefs in jazz academia that you think are ridiculous, insane etc. But you didn't introduce those "Period" lines by saying that, you just said them. Of course people reading it will think that's what you think, why wouldn't they. It's not much use saying "I'm just stating facts" if you forgot to introduce them with "This is what some people believe". I don't think it's a matter of 'tone'. Saying I'm 'ignoring the context' is just rude, saying I'm deliberately misunderstanding/misinterpreting. There was nothing 'gentle' about your manner, let's be real here. You were coming across like jazz police..because you don't like jazz police, it seems you're saying. And well, you don't mean 'using standards' as a barometer, but using being able to play them in any key as a barometer, if I understand you.
Sure, I get the paragraph about sitting in in a club. That sounds fair enough. That would only happen with singers, right? With just instrumentalists, how often would you get asked to play a standard in a non-standard key? (Unless it's a thing to call Stella in E, which it may well be, given what you say.)
p.s. Funny story: Herbie Hancock was sitting in at a jam in a coastal town somewhere south of Sydney once in the 1980s, and he called Green Dolphin St in Eb. The bass player said "No, it's in C!" haha. [Real names withheld]
edit: I just read your other long post on this page. I have so many problems with what you say there also that I don't think it's worth engaging further. I've found this very unpleasant. Good luck!
> Most people have, I suspect, not practised doing that much, because there's no need.
Giant Steps in all 12 keys is like everybody's favorite freshman woodshedding. "Learn standards in all 12 keys" is advice that literally every teacher or mentor I've ever had has given me.
At most gigs people won't be calling weird keys, though it is pretty likely that you'll be playing standards that have been played in multiple keys throughout time and you need to know it in all of the commonly played keys. At a cutting session, though, you can expect weird shit to come up. That's just (unfortunately) the nature of jazz right now. People love to show off and jazz has developed this culture of ridiculous difficulty. This leads people who really want to be serious to be prepared for this.
If you can't transpose on the fly, you're not a good jazz musician. Period.
Well, there's transposing and transposing. Transposing up/down a tone, semitone, fourth, fifth usually isn't too hard, depending on the song and tempo. But transposing some tunes by some intervals is very tricky. Most people have, I suspect, not practised doing that much, because there's no need. (No need at all if you don't play with singers.) Some jazz musicians practise playing tunes in every key, but a small minority, I believe. (And then you wouldn't be 'transposing on the fly' but doing something you've practised.) Being able to play tunes in one key is enough. But saying what you said so dogmatically sounds ridiculous to me. (I mean really..if someone can't, say, play Stella by Starlight in E 'on the fly' you'd tell them "You're not a good jazz musician. Period."?!)
If you can't play equally well in all keys, you're not a good jazz musician. Period.
That's just rubbish.
I'm not sure who you're trying to impress or why, but what you say just sounds wrong. And so arrogant: "You are way off base" "Period." "where the hell are you getting this?" etc. Everything the GP said sounded right to me. Read it again - you weren't really responding to what they said at all, but something else. It seems you felt insulted or something, I don't know why.